It's like the movie Ratatouille: Not everyone can be a good coder, but a good coder can come from anywhere.
While they may receive an impossibly large number of candidates, in the end, they will boil it down to roughly 15 students. That means that as long as their application process is sane, they will have found 15 good candidates who are going to be 'coding for the right reasons', whatever that means.
This is different from codecademy, which says that anyone and everyone should learn to code. Instead, they're claiming that you don't need a CS degree to be a professional programmer. That doesn't mean they're also saying you don't need to be dedicated, and analytical. Ultimately, the people who enter these programs are the kinds of people who would have made it on their own, albeit on a much longer timeline. I don't see any problem with jumpstarting it with careful curation and guidance.
I shed tears for the companies that hire the "graduates" of this "start to finish plan."
I don't care how good of an instructor you are, you cannot make a programmer remotely efficient in HTML5 (primarily the countless APIs involved), CSS3, AND JavaScript in only 12 weeks.
I don't know how that job placement is going to work -- but unless these learners start as interns, I don't know how beneficial this would be for them.
There's "jumping into the deep end" and then there's "jumping into the Atlantic." I get a sense of the latter with this program.
I strongly disagree - 900 hours is plenty of time for the right candidate. Granted, you couldn't put my mom or dad in this course and turn them into a front end dev in 12 weeks, but for the right candidate - absolutely. The program runs from 10am - 9pm, six days a week. That's a lot of commitment, and whoever applies is going to want it. So 12 weeks, absolutely.
It's my opinion that front end devs are born front end devs and don't realize it until they learn to program. The position requires a certain attitude and effective decision-making process that not all programmers possess, and it seems like the Catalyst organizers are screening applicants. A good developer can master any API just by reading the documentation - I guarantee they'll teach them that.
I have to admit that I was also skeptical when I heard about this model, but empirically, it works. (We're not the first program of this type -- there are several others.) Learning goes really fast when you have a lot of smart, dedicated people in a room, and employers see value in graduates.
Meanwhile, consider the alternatives available to our potential students. My buddy JP is probably going to be one of our first students. He had the most popular Harry Potter fansite in the 90s, and has run websites for most places he's worked in the last several years. He's gone through codecademy, but his last job was as a delivery guy. Do you really think this is going to make his future worse?
I completely agree that with the right candidate this could be great -- however, that can be applied to almost any area of knowledge.
I've been fed up lately with all the wrong people learning to program for the sake of learning to program. While I do agree with the fact that it's a very important skill, I also think that physics, mathematics, and so many other ones are too. If I came across a program like this for "serious mathematics" or "astrophysics" that was promising job placement after 12 weeks, I'd call the same.
You should learn something if you genuinely want to learn it, not because you think you'll make money, or if it's really means to an end. I feel that these "learn to program in a matter of weeks" type programs just encourage this behavior in too many people (and also attract them).
12 weeks is hardly enough for foundational programming knowledge -- and cramming more hours into a day may have more negative effects than positive. Above everything else, everyone learns differently and turning education into a sub-par web programmer farm will certainly impede on others' quality of learning.
If this instead went the route of hiring a one-on-one tutor (with an indefinite period of service) I think I'd have higher hopes. I have no doubts that you'll have some bright guys come through your program, but I can guarantee there's going to be a whole lot more of 'em with the wrong mentality -- which will be to their detriment, and possibly yours.
As for your friend JP, no, I do not think this will make his future worse.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm Tony, a co-founder at Catalyst.
There are a couple of interesting points to address here. One is that having an intense program could have a negative effect. In my experience teaching programming in immersion schools like this one, the students who stayed these kinds of hours knew they were going to work that hard from the beginning and just got more out of the program. I myself learned to code through an immersion school and felt more like I was missing out when went home at 7-8 than anything. We are looking for the type of person who wants this kind of all-encompassing program for 12 weeks.
I also think one-on-one tutors are great ideas, but for me personally being around a room full of other motivated people that are in my same position is so much more motivating.
I'd love to hear about what you think the 'wrong mentality' is. Feel free to ping me offline and let's chat.
Hey Shawn. I've been looking into Dev Bootcamp so to hear about Catalyst is exciting for me. I'm surprised there are several other programs of this type though. Which ones are they?
Not sure if this counts as empirical evidence but I was a Dev Bootcamp graduate. Working full time now. I recognize the deficiencies in my knowledge and experience before anyone else does, and there are many, but I am stil learning and loving what I do.
I'm also a Dev Bootcamp graduate and I work at Hipmunk now as a software engineer. Something like 93% of my class (summer) got hired so I'd say there's _some_ empirical evidence. What kind of engineers we'll be in a year's time will be even better evidence and from my own personal experience, I think the results will be positive.
I help run App Academy (appacademy.io), a similar program also based in SF. For what it's worth, we graduated our first class about 3 weeks ago, and our students have already received offers from companies such as Twilio and Thoughtbot.
Not to mention 12 weeks with 900 hours worth of instruction and projects.
900 / (12 * 7) = 10.7 hours per day including weekends, or 15 hours a day without. These classes better be absolutely riveting to keep a student's attention.
> I shed tears for the companies that hire the "graduates" of this "start to finish plan."
Companies can hire them as interns and pay them as such for a trial period. In the US, companies can also fire at will if the experiment doesn't work out. Moreover, finding front-end programmers is generally hard, so for many companies this is probably a worthwhile experiment.
In response to the "There is NO way a person can become a productive programmer in 10 weeks"
Programming and software engineering are about solving complex problems. Most of the people who get into these programs, start with the skills required to program, ie, curiosity about solving problems with technology. Also, the goal of the program isn't to graduate soloist-rock star programmers, it is to graduate super smart well grounded personalities who can be super-atmospherically-high quality apprentice's, which is totally plausible. There is like a 10:2 engineering to all other jobs ratio that probably won't go away. Spending a small chunk of time/money (I spent 10k for DevBootCamp) versus getting a traditional 4year CS degree, which is in no way shape or form proven to be a great path to becoming a solid engineer, is a no brainer.
Tony who is one of the teachers at Catalyst taught me a bunch at devbootcamp. He is incredibly smart and patient, does an extremely good job of instilling in people that they can themselves solve complex problems. I myself did devbootcamp this summer, it was a great experience and forever increased my impact as a person and technologist.
Congratulations to Shawn and Tony for launching this new venture! I know you guys have taken big personal and professional risks to follow this dream (you know, quitting your jobs, putting up your life savings, professional reputations on the line, etc). From the hard work and pure hustle I've seen so far, I've got great confidence that you will be successful. Huzzah!
This is cool, but somewhat ironically your site doesn't render too well in my browser. It (specifically the nav) flickers, and doesn't render fully when scrolling long distances. It also could use some padding. I'm on Chrome latest for iOS on an iPad.
Anyways, rendering aside, I love more resources, so I'll keep an eye on this.
This is really a great initiative, too bad most of these programs require moving to SF for a few weeks, which puts working adults / parents / anyone who wants to do a career change practically out of the picture. I wish there was something like this here in Atlanta, I know many people that would have signed up
It's not just the move that puts this program out of the reach of people with kids or other commitments -- it's the entire schedule. 12 weeks of 10am to 9pm, Monday through Saturday? This is basically a way of saying (whether intentionally or not), do not bother to apply if you are not young. Do not bother if you place too high a value on spending time with your spouse, or your kids, or your girlfriend, or your boyfriend, or your aging grandmother. Do not bother if you've already committed some of your waking hours to serving your community or your church or a part time job that you use to pay the bills.
Don't get me wrong: Tech training is incredibly valuable, and is increasingly critical to the economy. And I believe intensive training has merit. This program may well produce some stars. But why can't it do the same on a 9-6p M-F schedule? What's less intensive about that?
So I hope this doesn't become a model. Because we don't gain much by reinforcing the stereotype that technology is just for young single people who would rather spend the night in front of their computers than with their friends and families. If you want to broaden the appeal of Web development, let's start training real people.
I would guess that the major alternative for most of the applicants for this program would be studying on their own. You can take as long as you'd like to learn. Doing that, you can spend as much time as you'd like with friends/family, doing community work or anything else you choose. If you're motivated (and possibly unemployed), doing whatever it takes over a 3 month period to learn how to do front-end development might make sense. But like any other decision, there are tradeoffs. This "all-in" boot-camp style takes a lot of dedication. I don't think there's much risk of it becoming the primary way people learn to code, and even if it does, one can still learn on their own as easily as they could before.
It's true that a good majority of these programs focus around tech centers in the country, but there are some other options for people for whatever reason cannot move. The guys at Bloc.io are really great and offer an online version.
Thanks for the suggestion, but actually I totally disagree. Spending time coding Javascript and spending time teaching or preparing to teach Javascript are two different things.
If I were a student, I would want a group of guys to get a wordpress theme and reinvest all the time they saved into making the program better for me.
You disagree with the suggestion to clean up the code? Because teaching how to code and writing code are two different things, I agree.
It is great you saved time by using a theme and hacking it a bit for your purpose. Perhaps now there is some time to make your site accessible, credible and adherent to standards, like you teach your students?
You know best where to invest your time. This shouldn't take too long though.
<meta name='robots' content='noindex,nofollow' />
Is that supposed to be there? You are already indexed, but lack a snippet, due to this. Google substituted your page title in the results with your first <h1> ("Learn to code. Get a job.")
I often am very sketchy on the merits of Coffeescript, but how does it have a position on a 12wk crash-course? We can't even expect a competent non-programmer to jQuery-programmer in that span of time; much less great competency in JavaScript; and now another level of abstraction? Why?
I actually agree that there are great reasons to write plain JS, but Coffeescript is an awesome teaching tool (to explain compilers, the difference between syntax and programming, etc).
OK, that sounds like a fantastic use of Coffeescript, as it is probably rather dry with standard, "lower level" curriculum of the same subjects. Speaking of which, is there somewhere to find "the curriculum?" I obviously made a mistake in assuming this might be another case of pushing Coffeescript for all the wrong reasons.
Kudos, nonetheless, as this would be a superb addition to what is really lacking in our education with younger crowds. What is the expected out-reach to those just out of High School or in pre College-Degree status?
The Phillips Bros. (Tony & Marcus) are fantastic. I can't wait to see the front-end engineers this course produces.
If you're looking into an accelerated development training course and are confused by the many courses similar to Dev Bootcamp, Catalyst seems like the best option for front-end development. I'd wager that starting salaries of Catalyst grads will confirm this.
Who are you trying to market this program to? I feel like the group of people who are willing to dedicate 3 months and have $10k-$15k sitting around is alarmingly small.
I think I could benefit greatly from attending this, but only being a few years out of college and still in debt means I would be crazy to attend.
Yeah, we're keenly aware of the catch 22 here :/ We're working on some creative solutions, but it's very expensive to put on a program like this, and many of our students will need to draw on help from friends and family. It helps that this kind of program can lead directly to a high-paying job.
Our experience is that students and potential employers are asking for a longer program, so ours runs for 12 weeks instead of 9.
We think class size is a big determinant of educational outcomes, so we think students might be interested to know that we'll have 15 students in our cohort (vs 60 in DBC's if I recall correctly).
Our hours are longer -- 10-9, six days a week. We're asking you to take time off of your normal life, and we think it's important to provide a very immersive environment for you to make the most of that period.
We're going to put a lot more effort into helping you with your job search process. Our hiring day is after week 10, and weeks 11 and 12 consist of preparation aligned with the jobs that you'd like to get, practice interviews, etc.
Jesse, here. For those just tuning in, Shawn & I know each other and I help run Dev Bootcamp. Tony Phillips, one of Shawn's co-founders, was a teacher-in-training at Dev Bootcamp for 5 months and before that a student in our first, 8-week cohort.
A few corrections:
1. Our current cohort has 54 students. Starting January 28th, we'll have 48 students in the space at a given time. Although it's been challenging, we've so far been able to increase group cohesion as we increase class size.
Below a certain size it's very easy for students to feel isolated if they can't find at least one other student to identify with.
2. Although our core hours are 9AM-6PM Monday-Friday, most students are here 12+ hours per day, 6-7 days per week. 75% of the class was here last weekend, for example. We keep a tight container on core hours and give students flexibility on off hours.
The average student is working for about ~750 hours over the course of Dev Bootcamp.
Also, about 50% of each cohort comes from out-of-state, and about 20% have families and children. Trust me, they're "tak[ing] time off [their] normal life."
3. We've worked with around ~100 companies over the course of our hiring days and none of them are asking for a longer training period. If an employer is skeptical, there's little difference between 9, 10, or 12 weeks.
Twitter hired one of our summer students as an intern, for example, and their initial skepticism was more along the lines of, "How could 10 weeks compare to a 4-year University CS education?" That's a rough paraphrase from a conversation I had with a head of their head of college recruiting in April.
On the flip side, virtually all employers return for future hiring days and about half send employees to become mentors for students in the following DBC class. I'll grant you that we might be talking to different employers.
I don't think the issue here is whether this works or not. The point is that there aren't enough devs. That several programs like these are starting, and that companies are willing to hire, gives you a glimpse of the demand for developers these days.
I believe this trend will continue in the near future, and people with the capacity to become hireable programmers will transfer from other professions.
Awesome, congrats to Tony and Shawn for launching. Wishing you the best! Feel free to check out http://www.hackbrightacademy.com for a software dev training program for women.
I notice that you don't have a client-side framework (e.g., backbone) listed under "The Program". Is this just an omission or something that you have consciously done?
Thanks so much for the kind wishes. We haven't decided on a client-side framework yet (though I do like backbone), so we were holding off until we had decided what we wanted to include in the curriculum.
This looks very interesting but why is the start date november? Its a little inconvenient. Why not make it January to start at the beginning of the year?
They also mention there's a new class starting every month. What I was curious about and didn't see mentioned specifically was the cost of tuition if any?
EDIT: Well I need to read more closely as well, I found the answer: Tuition: We’re still deciding on the total price, the payment plan options, and scholarship details.
We are still figuring out the details of our pricing scheme, but one thing we are committed to is not letting finance problems stop us from accepting a good applicant. If you are at all worried about the price, I would suggest applying and we will try our best to find a way to make it possible to attend.
It seems to diverge from my goal, which is to really learn JavaScript (learning HTML5 and CSS are bonuses). Seems to focus on Ruby on Rails and hardcore web development.
Edited to add: Just read up at the site. I would need a Pre-Hacker School (Hacker Pre-School? Heh.). Otherwise the program sounds good and I'm glad to see something like that here in the NYC area.
While they may receive an impossibly large number of candidates, in the end, they will boil it down to roughly 15 students. That means that as long as their application process is sane, they will have found 15 good candidates who are going to be 'coding for the right reasons', whatever that means.
This is different from codecademy, which says that anyone and everyone should learn to code. Instead, they're claiming that you don't need a CS degree to be a professional programmer. That doesn't mean they're also saying you don't need to be dedicated, and analytical. Ultimately, the people who enter these programs are the kinds of people who would have made it on their own, albeit on a much longer timeline. I don't see any problem with jumpstarting it with careful curation and guidance.