>A rational relief for being in the country illegally is a removal of such an individual from the country.
Right, but immigration detention isnt that.
>Same as if somebody enters your house and you don't want them there, you don't ask for a dollar a day or to clean up the dishes, do you? You ask them to leave and call police if they refuse.
The house analogy is really weird and does not at all fit the realities of a nation.
>This is where detention comes into play: people who don't want to leave the country need to be detained before forcibly transported outside the country's border, maybe in the future, when we invent instant teleportation, we will be able to just send them home without detention but the current realities do not allow for that.
They dont need to be detained. Theres no process that cant be completed before deportation without detention. It is arbitrary punishment. Your own tortured analogy of the house, does not detain prisoners in the basement while awaiting court in the I don't know Laundry to see if their marriage to someone in the master bedroom is valid. Theres no reason someone cant live working in the living room? (who comes up with these terrible seppoisms?) and sleeping in their room that they can somehow afford to pay for in your house somehow while the laundry judge rules on their case before taking them to the roof airport?
Feeling a bit like the house thing is forced to come to some predetermined conclusion but its not as obvious as made out nor is it any good.
Anyway to blow that whole thing open I looked at the silly seppo website and:
"Most aliens ICE arrests are detained and eventually removed. In some cases, these people remain in ICE detention for months while they wait for a final decision from an immigration judge."
It feels like you have some unique model of detention in your head (or mean something else than the common meaning of the word). The process is very simple - you are detained and then, when enough people are accumulated, they get loaded onto a bus/plane and removed from the country. Even if there was an abundance of buses and planes and every illegal alien would be loaded onto one immediately there would be still a detention to move him or her from the place where they were found to the bus or plane.
What you wrote only makes a faint sense in assumption that detention is given as a punishment for immigration violations as same as prison term. This does not happen in reality, detention is a necessary part of removing an alien who has no right to be in the country and not some kind of punishment, which you could serve and come out as a legal alien.
Detention is literally being used arbitrarily, before the decision is made to even determine the person is an alien. If something is uneccesary its usually being used as punishment.
>there would be still a detention to move him or her from the place where they were found to the bus or plane.
Whats wrong with a court order and a plane ticket? Other than nothing at all. (The usual response from the border brainrot is that either they need to be prevented from escaping, which they could have done earlier instead of choosing to remain a part of society. Then when that ones knocked down its as a "Deterrent" which is where we wrap back around to this being a punishment)
>What you wrote only makes a faint sense in assumption that detention is given as a punishment for immigration violations as same as prison term.
No I have not made that mistake at all.
>detention is a necessary part of removing an alien
Nope. No reason for it at all.
>which you could serve and come out as a legal alien.
Never said that at all. Just that theres no reason for someone to go into arbitrary detention before attending court/airport/border when they pose no risk to society. To do otherwise is a punishment.
>Detention is literally being used arbitrarily, before the decision is made to even determine the person is an alien. If something is uneccesary its usually being used as punishment.
It is not. There has to be a reason to believe the person is an illegal alien. In this article, for example, all detainees presented documentation of their illegal presence and identified themselves with photo ID.
>Whats wrong with a court order and a plane ticket?
Someone already broke the law and is in the country illegally. What are the reasons for them to listen and follow a court order? Also, the immigration being a civil matter, how do you even obtain such an order? Sue them and go through a trial? There are already laws that allow removal of these aliens so this looks just like some redittor's wish-list in lieu of knowing the law.
>Nope. No reason for it at all.
Yeah, it seems that you don't see the reason. Can't explain something to somebody who is unwilling to understand.
>It is not. There has to be a reason to believe the person is an illegal alien. In this article, for example, all detainees presented documentation of their illegal presence and identified themselves with photo ID.
So, give them a court order to board a flight? Like if they are willing to prove their illegal status why is detention needed?
>Someone already broke the law and is in the country illegally. What are the reasons for them to listen and follow a court order? Also, the immigration being a civil matter, how do you even obtain such an order? Sue them and go through a trial? There are already laws that allow removal of these aliens so this looks just like some redittor's wish-list in lieu of knowing the law.
Yeah its a civil matter, so there shouldn't be detention. Great point.
Also, have you considered that the arbitrary detention is the reason someone might refuse to attend?
>how do you even obtain such an order?
Whoever is sending ICE to detain people raises the case on behalf of the government?
>What are the reasons for them to listen and follow a court order?
Why are they renting a house, paying taxes and following every other law? Just off the top of my head, criminal contempt, due to violation of the court order, would prevent almost any attempt at legal reentry?
>There are already laws that allow removal of these aliens so this looks just like some redittor's wish-list in lieu of knowing the law.
Invoking reddit is the most reddit thing you can do.
>There are already laws that permit the removal of aliens
Yeah, but the system is clearly deranged and we are discussing that obvious derangement.
>Yeah, it seems that you don't see the reason. Can't explain something to somebody who is unwilling to understand.
You are doing the classic "I will outline the rules as justification for the rules". You have done nothing to establish your position from first principles. What you have written might be enough to convince yourself, but you haven't provided anything like a justification. "Oh they might try and escape" well ignoring a court order is actually justification to lock someone up. There's no justification for the assumption that someone might commit a crime, even if we were to agree that a misdemeanor makes someones soul black and marked as a criminal forever and a day (Which we dont agree, thats another weird seppoism).
>So, give them a court order to board a flight? Like if they are willing to prove their illegal status why is detention needed?
You either don't read what I wrote or it does not get through. These people were already given the order to leave the country by a date and they disobeyed it. Now they are in the removal proceedings, which consists of detaining them and transporting them out of the country. Detention is needed because to remove somebody from the country you need to detain them so you could transport them over the border. As I said, we don't have a teleport ray which we could point and make them to disappear and reappear in their home.
>Yeah its a civil matter, so there shouldn't be detention. Great point.
Why there should not be detention? I don't see how it follows. Are you unaware of civil detention/arrest? Can't you just read the Wikipedia or anything other than reddit/twitter before making absurd statements?
>Also, have you considered that the arbitrary detention is the reason someone might refuse to attend?
Attend what? I am sure they have many reasons to stay in my country so what?
>Whoever is sending ICE to detain people raises the case on behalf of the government?
Case of what? Of applying the existing law? "Your Honor, the law tells us to deport these aliens and we are able to do that but, just for shit and giggles, we want you to give them an order to leave and see what happens. Yes, we do respect the law and the court. No, we are not drunk or high. Just do this, please!"
> Just off the top of my head, criminal contempt, due to violation of the court order, would prevent almost any attempt at legal reentry?
And? There literally tens of millions of illegal immigrants who don't care about any of this.
>Invoking reddit is the most reddit thing you can do.
I trust you, I don't use reddit and can only indirectly observe redditors on HN.
>Yeah, but the system is clearly deranged and we are discussing that obvious derangement.
Okay. Here is my argument: the system is not deranged. I win.
Right, but immigration detention isnt that.
>Same as if somebody enters your house and you don't want them there, you don't ask for a dollar a day or to clean up the dishes, do you? You ask them to leave and call police if they refuse.
The house analogy is really weird and does not at all fit the realities of a nation.
>This is where detention comes into play: people who don't want to leave the country need to be detained before forcibly transported outside the country's border, maybe in the future, when we invent instant teleportation, we will be able to just send them home without detention but the current realities do not allow for that.
They dont need to be detained. Theres no process that cant be completed before deportation without detention. It is arbitrary punishment. Your own tortured analogy of the house, does not detain prisoners in the basement while awaiting court in the I don't know Laundry to see if their marriage to someone in the master bedroom is valid. Theres no reason someone cant live working in the living room? (who comes up with these terrible seppoisms?) and sleeping in their room that they can somehow afford to pay for in your house somehow while the laundry judge rules on their case before taking them to the roof airport?
Feeling a bit like the house thing is forced to come to some predetermined conclusion but its not as obvious as made out nor is it any good.
Anyway to blow that whole thing open I looked at the silly seppo website and:
"Most aliens ICE arrests are detained and eventually removed. In some cases, these people remain in ICE detention for months while they wait for a final decision from an immigration judge."
https://www.ice.gov/self-deportation
Theres nothing wrong with:
> Complete legal process while living in situ > If determination is, deportation, fine X and escort person to airport/border.
You would probably spend less money giving people 2 further weeks to deal with their affairs beforehand but w/e not required.
Detention, especially before trial, being a necessary component is a ghost that lives entirely in your head that you can evict at any time.