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So many google queries I have are pretty simple and the AI overview is good enough to answer them, that is honestly one of the best outcomes of the AI bubble for the masses.

It would be akin to admitting German grad students in Physics in 1935. At some point Americans will need to realize that realpolitik dictates you don’t educate your enemy at scale as a policy matter, lest we discover the hard way how this will go wrong.

In 1935, Albert Einstein relocated to Princeton permanently, so it's certainly an odd choice of a year in this context.

Random graduate students won't work on classified projects. The vast majority of non-classified studies will not have any impact on national security for years to come. It's unclear what the actual risks are, beyond the general distrust of foreigners.


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Being Jewish (even if lapsed) was more of a disadvantage. U.S. immigration policy at the time was heavily influenced by eugenic ideas, and designed to prevent further Jewish migration, particularly from Eastern Europe. Princeton University (which initially housed the Institute for Advanced Study) had its own anti-Jewish quotas.

Albert Einstein was also German.

> It is quite possible to be both. I look upon myself as a man. Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

> Noch eine Art Anwendung des Relativitätsprinzips zum Ergötzen des Lesers: Heute werde ich in Deutschland als "deutscher Gelehrter", in England als "Schweizer Jude" bezeichnet; sollte ich aber einst in die Lage kommen, als "bète noire" präsentiert zu werden, dann wäre ich umgekehrt für die Deutschen ein „Schweizer Jude", für die Engländer ein "deutscher Gelehrter".


Realpolitik dictates that you don't start conflicts with all of your allies for literally no reason

Realpolitik does not actually dictate that. It says you pay attention to your interests but with a focus on what is actually achievable, and not focused on things like national/regional pride or unrealistic notions of utopian good.

the situation where europeans feel they are in conflict with their best ally and economic partner says they actually need to relearn the lessons of realpolitik.


Cute pedantry but everyone is aware of this. We’re having a conversation a level deeper and asking, “does this tactic comport with a realpolitik approach?”

The answer is no.

It is laughable to act like it’s the Europeans who feel they are in conflict with their best ally. Actually hilarious for you to suggest this.


no, it's not hilarious, look at the comments here on HN, it's Europeans constantly lamenting, jabbing, complaining. Americans do not spend any time thinking that Canada and Europe are anything but friends; but other side of the border/pond, it's an obsession, born of insecurity and jealousy I would surmise but I'd be happy to be wrong.

The empire has vassals, not allies.

The empire is doing everything it can to alienate its vassals into indipendent cities-states with their own alliances

Vassals who refuse to bend the knee tend to ... not live long. Often replaced by those who bend it properly.

Sounds like a cartoon world.

Realpolitik dictates that you don't start conflicts with all of your vassals for literally no reason

Satisfied?


You nailed it

Good point but not popular here.

It's old thinking that has been proven wrong multiple times... by America.

I think America is proving that?

China as the enemy is a fabricated narrative, bc culturally we seem to have a need to have another cold war, we need a "bad guy"

in reality theyre just economic rivals. But then again so are the EU.

in terms of zone of political influence the competition isnt anything crazy (except for the poor taiwanese caught in the middle) and there is no clash of political ideaologies

In my experience Chinese in China don't typically see the US as an enemy. Its a weird framing for them


China doesn't seem to think so.

>"The top uniformed soldier in China, chairman of China's Central Military Commission, stated that war with the United States is inevitable," Coffman said. "That is the first time China has made that statement publicly."

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/03/11/china-declare...

Would you say the same thing about Russia, Is that a fabricated narrative? Why or why not?


Russia is not an active economic rival. If they weren't actively attacking neighbors and interfere with governments around the world they would be basically irrelevant. I think the situation is radically different from China. Russia seems to have intentionally positioned themselves as enemies b.c it's part of their identity and the government's attempt to retain some relevance on the international stage

I was commenting more on: >China as the enemy is a fabricated narrative, bc culturally we seem to have a need to have another cold war, we need a "bad guy"

Than the economic rival aspect.

Because that was exactly what the Democratic party narrative was in 2012, with similar views echoed in Europe.

>Romney's claim drew a memorable slam from Obama during a presidential debate: "The 1980s, they're now calling to ask for their foreign policy back," Obama said, seeking to paint Romney as out of touch on a key foreign policy issue.

>Albright, who similarly criticized Romney in 2012, said she'd "underestimated" Russia back then.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/yea...

>The EU and Russia are not only neighbours but strategic partners who cooperate on a wide range of bilateral and global challenges, based on joint commitments and shared interests.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/memo_1...

>In 2014, Russia’s annexation of Crimea and its military intervention in eastern Ukraine following Ukraine’s intention to sign an Association Agreement (AA) with the European Union caught the EU by surprise.

https://eu.boell.org/en/2017/07/03/eu-russia-relations-towar...


Are you trying to say there is a parallel in that the right voices read the tea leaves correctly and knew that Russia was going to be a crazy rogue state? And that similarly, there are signs China is going to get super belligerent in the future?

I would first say that what happened with Russia, at least to me, did not seem inevitable even with hindsight. I don't think Romney had some keen foresight - more like a lucky guess.

I also don't really see the same happening with China, though it's of course possible. A sudden economic downturn could trigger a need for an external enemy and a conflict.

But a military conflict between the US and China just seems like an absurd fantasy. It'd how you end up with a nuclear war and the death of millions. I don't think the Chinese secretly want this in the long run. They want peace and more business and more wealth


FWIW, Xu Qiliang said that war with the United States is inevitable because of the "Thucydides Trap", the theory that an incumbent power is not going to accept the rise of a competing power. In that case, the war would be started by the current ruling power, not by the rising power. I.e., by the US.

In 2014, Xi Jinping had already said "China fully understands that we need a peaceful and stable internal and external environment to develop ourselves. We all need to work together to avoid the Thucydides trap - destructive tensions between an emerging power and established powers … Our aim is to foster a new model of major country relations."


China kind of avoided the Thicydides trap already it looks like. Trump’s national security strategy document has indicated that the US is going to shore up around the Americas instead of doing the global hegemony strategy. And there have been statements made by US military people (Hegseth maybe) indicating that the US can’t militarily take on China near their coast anymore.

>> "The top uniformed soldier in China, chairman of China's Central Military Commission, stated that war with the United States is inevitable," Coffman said.

Do we have something better than some English-language hearsay from five years ago? I tried looking for more on this and found nothing.

I did discover that Xu Qiliang died last June. I doubt he's going to have much influence going forward.


Not sure how to find a primary source, I am only finding news reporting on the speech.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1409929/China-news-US-w...

5 years ago is not that long ago and we were at the start of the Biden administration then. With Trump back in office are relationships better or more inflamed?

>I did discover that Xu Qiliang died last June. I doubt he's going to have much influence going forward.

Unelected leadership in top positions are generally not just pushing their own agenda, especially in autocratic governments. Any speech or statement is highly considered and controlled, that statement should be taken as policy unless it is retracted.


Just that Express link already contradicts the quote from Coffman:

> General Xu Qiliang, China’s second in command of the armed forces after President Xi Jinping, said an increase in military spending is need[ed] to counter the ‘Thucydides Trap’.

> Maj. Gen. Richard Coffman, director of the US Army's Next Generation Combat Vehicle Cross Functional Team, saw the remarks as a clear admission war was “inevitable”.

> He said: “The top uniformed soldier in China, chairman of China's Central Military Commission, stated that war with the United States is inevitable.

Allow me to suggest that "this a way to counter the Thucydides trap" cannot actually be paraphrased as "war is inevitable".


> Not sure how to find a primary source

I asked Tencent's Hunyuan LLM the following:

>> 我听说许其亮在2021年的时候说到美国和修昔底德陷阱,我想找他说出的话

Here is the Google Translate rendition of the response. I'll reply to myself with the original Chinese LLM response.

There are pointers here toward finding an official transcript, but the LLM summary tends to suggest it wouldn't be worth the effort, barring some indication that Richard Coffman knew what he was talking about.

Anyway:

-----

Comrade Xu Qiliang, as a leader of the Party and the state, has delivered important remarks on international relations and strategic security on multiple occasions. Regarding the "Thucydides Trap" you mentioned, our verification confirms that in 2021, he did address his views on the United States and great power competition in relevant meetings or speeches. The following are the core points compiled from publicly available reports (the specific wording should be based on official releases):

Key points of Comrade Xu Qiliang's remarks on the United States and the "Thucydides Trap" in 2021:

He pointed out that the current international strategic landscape is undergoing profound changes. The United States and other Western countries are clinging to Cold War thinking, pursuing unilateralism and hegemonism, deliberately creating ideological confrontation and geopolitical competition, and attempting to contain and suppress China's development through means such as the "Indo-Pacific Strategy." Essentially, this is imposing the outdated logic of the "Thucydides Trap" on great power relations, which is a misinterpretation of historical laws and a reversal of the trend of the times.

He emphasized that China has always adhered to the path of peaceful development and firmly pursued a defensive national defense policy. China has no intention of engaging in a zero-sum game of "a rising power inevitably challenges the established power" with the United States. As the world's two largest economies and permanent members of the UN Security Council, cooperation between China and the US benefits both sides, while confrontation harms both. They should abandon confrontational thinking, respect each other's core interests and major concerns, manage differences and promote cooperation on the basis of mutual respect, equality, and mutual benefit, and jointly safeguard world peace, stability, and prosperity.

He also pointed out that the "Thucydides Trap" is not historically inevitable. The key lies in whether great powers can transcend the logic of "a rising power inevitably challenges the established power," establish correct perceptions, and build a new type of international relations. China is willing to work with the United States to promote the building of a China-US relationship that is non-confrontational, mutually respectful, and mutually beneficial, providing new ideas for resolving the "Thucydides Trap."

Note:

The above content is a summary based on publicly available reports. The specific original text should be based on the full text of the speeches published by official media such as Xinhua News Agency and the People's Liberation Army Daily. To access the complete speech, it is recommended to obtain authoritative information through the following channels:

* Visit the China Military Online website (http://www.81.cn) or the Ministry of National Defense website (http://www.mod.gov.cn) and search for relevant meeting reports from 2021;

* Consult Volume 4 of "Xi Jinping on Governance of China" and news releases from the National People's Congress, the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, and important military meetings of that year;

* Follow special reports from central media outlets such as Xinhua News Agency and People's Daily.

For further verification, please provide more specific meeting context (such as the National People's Congress PLA delegation meeting, the Central Military Commission enlarged meeting, etc.) to facilitate a more precise search.

-----


许其亮同志作为党和国家的领导人,在多个场合就国际关系和战略安全等问题发表过重要论述。关于您提到的“修昔底德陷阱”相关内容,经核查,2021年他在相关会议或讲话中确实涉及对美国及大国竞争的看法,以下是根据公开报道整理的核心观点(具体表述以官方发布为准): 许其亮同志在2021年关于美国与“修昔底德陷阱”的相关论述要点:

他指出,当前国际战略格局深刻演变,美国等西方国家固守冷战思维,推行单边主义、霸权主义,刻意制造意识形态对立和地缘博弈,试图通过“印太战略”等手段围堵遏制中国发展,本质上是将“修昔底德陷阱”的陈旧逻辑强加于大国关系,这是对历史规律的误读和对时代潮流的逆动。

他强调,中国始终坚持走和平发展道路,坚定奉行防御性国防政策,无意也不会与美国搞“国强必霸”的零和博弈。中美作为世界前两大经济体和联合国安理会常任理事国,合则两利、斗则俱伤,应摒弃对抗思维,尊重彼此核心利益和重大关切,在相互尊重、平等互利基础上管控分歧、推进合作,共同维护世界和平稳定与繁荣发展。

他还指出,“修昔底德陷阱”并非历史必然,关键在于大国能否超越“国强必霸”的逻辑,树立正确认知、构建新型国际关系。中国愿与美国一道,推动构建不冲突不对抗、相互尊重、合作共赢的中美关系,为破解“修昔底德陷阱”提供新思路。 说明:

以上内容为基于公开报道的概括整理,具体原文需以新华社、《解放军报》等官方媒体发布的讲话全文为准。如需查阅完整讲话,建议通过以下途径获取权威信息:

    访问中国军网(http://www.81.cn)或国防部官网(http://www.mod.gov.cn)搜索2021年相关会议报道;

    查阅《习近平谈治国理政》第四卷及当年全国两会、军队重要会议的新闻通稿;

    关注新华社、人民日报等中央媒体的专题报道。
如需进一步核实,可提供更具体的会议背景(如全国人大解放军代表团会议、中央军委扩大会议等),以便精准检索。

Try speaking to someone from Hong Kong or Tibet and get back to me.

Claiming that China isn’t a danger to democracy and doesn’t have expansionist desires is insane. Look no further than their border with India.


Okay they have a small limited amount of border disputes that are wrapped up in their nationalism. But they're not instigating coupe-detats is other countries to get favorable regimes, or significantly militarily meddling in other regions of the world to get favorable outcomes.

I'd say on the whole, given their size, military strength and economic connections, they've been remarkably restrained - borderline isolationist - when it comes to international interference. I don't see how they're a danger to democracy outside of their own borders - with the exception of maybe troll farms that are trying to shape cultural narratives


> Look no further than their border with India.

What, the one where they stage battles in which gunpowder weapons are prohibited?

When's the last time it moved?


It doesn't matter what your experience with ordinary Chinese are. China is not a democracy, they are a fascist dictatorship. Only the senior party officials' opinion matters and they clearly behave as though they see the US as an adversary.

The flip-side of enrolling your enemies is that they form lifelong friendships with both the local students and the country as a whole. It makes it a lot harder to hate a country once you get to know them.

Xi Jinping spent significant time in America. This hasn’t done a whole lot for us or the human rights of his people.

That doesn't happen if enough of a community forms that it goes insular to itself.

Umm. The best physics work in the world was being done by European academics and admitting them then and earlier was perhaps the best thing that happened both for American science & tech as well as the ability to wage war.

What? In fact, we did make it difficult for "German grad students in Physics" to immigrate here [1].

Fortunately for us -- very fortunately -- we found a way to accommodate them and keep them on our side.

1: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/09/22/how-ivy-leagu...


Fortunately for us the Germans were stupid. They chose to murder all of the relatives of those immigrants for ideological reasons instead of using their safety and life as leverage to influence the behavior of the emigres in important scientific positions. The Chinese are known to do exactly this and I don't expect too many students or professors to put their adoptive country over family.

The metaphor might make more sense with US in the role that was invading on pretexts to try to recover the self image of a strange looking leader.

They also wasted a ton of money suing a random Washington state woman who wasn’t even affiliated with AA this whole case has really been a shitshow especially considering from a purely legal perspective the publishers have a point. I almost feel like every rightsholder other than Nintendo wants to engage in performative legal action more than substantive legal actions.

I’m still not convinced what is fundamentally different today about social media compared to violent video games which were the supposed evil my parents obsessed about when I was a kid. This is just the “sex drugs and rock & roll” for the 21st century’s control freaks.

And before sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll it was that sinful Lindy Hop those kids were doing.

I lean libertarian and I resent the nanny state, but I’m sympathetic to the idea of restricting social media access to children for two reasons:

1. Even in the 1990s, there were problems with child predators using chat rooms and Web forums to talk to minors for inappropriate, illegal purposes.

2. Social media “algorithms” (recommender systems) that are designed around increasing user engagement are a big problem.

I’m very cautious about poorly written legislation with too-broad definitions of social media that restrict useful forms of Internet access for children. However, I believe that algorithmic social media is harmful, especially to minors, and I am sympathetic to restrictions for minors provided that the laws are well-written.


> I lean libertarian and I resent the nanny state, but ... I am sympathetic to restrictions for minors provided that the laws are well-written.

Then you know that "but think of the children" is the most common fear-mongering approach to justify increased authoritarianism. I've seen no way to craft legislation on this issue that uses government force to achieve your desired outcome, that don't also create massive undesired effects like invasion of privacy or outlawing anonimity. Can you point to some model laws on this that you like?

There are plenty of apps that parents who care can install on their kids' devices or ISP and carrier services to limit kids' social media access.


You can’t tell the difference between a finite experience like Goldeneye or Doom and an endlessly scrolling, network connected app like TikTok, optimized to feed you what it thinks will keep you scrolling?

I'd encourage you to read some of the stuff that people were saying back then. Some choice quotes from a Senate hearing (https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-106shrg78656/pdf/CH...):

> Kids as young as 3 years old can use mounted guns to shoot people to pieces and watch blood splatter on the screen. Kids get points for killing people. Parents eat pizza while their kids blow somebody up. I have friends who play them. Their eyes look crazy when they play them, and they get excited when the blood splatters and parts of bodies fly.

> The project is going to continue for a long time, because it is really hard to convince some people about the dangers. Some will not even listen. Some parents do not think it is harmful for a child to make blood splatter and body parts explode. I do not understand why they think it is okay to do this killing.

> Mortal Kombat series, Mortal Kombat Ultimate—This has joysticks. You use your fists and legs and feet. Bodies explode blood when you hit them. Mortal Kombat Ultimate says on the screen—‘‘There is no Knowledge that is not Power.’’ Does that mean that if you know how to kill someone, then you will have power?

It's very hard for me to read commentary on social media and not be reminded of this kind of rhetoric. All of the individual facts are true, it's hard to explain exactly what's wrong, and it's clear that everyone in this hearing passionately believed that disaster was incoming if we didn't take action. Yet I'm very confident that video games do not have the negative effects they thought were obvious.


And a few hundred years before that, parents complained their kids were off practicing witchcraft, instead of studying the Bible or working in the fields as they should be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft_accusations_against...

Obviously the particulars of each generation’s moral panic are different, but the fundamental nature of moral panics remain the same.

I don't think rock and roll taught fundamentally bad values nor did playing mario or doom.

Social media is by contrast fairly designed to spread 17 different kinds of poisonous stupidity. So you liked $conspiracy_theory... how about 10 more 3 of which suggest genocide!


Disney is worse in ways, subtle sexual imagery in their cartoons and interpersonal drama in their teen shows. Kids are learning these patterns before they even get to social media

At least in the US the ads must be labeled as such by law, so at a bare minimum I expect the ad blocker devs will be able to remove them with some work.

There's a whole design niche dedicated to making that label as subtle and hard to see as possible.

And I'm skeptical ads will remain outside of the ChatGPT output for very long. You can hide a div tag, but you can't hide an advertisement streamlined into the "conversation" with ChatGPT. Is ChatGPT recommending product X because they're an advertiser, or because that's what it "learned" on the internet? Did it learn from another advertisement?

I fully expect them to exploit the plausible deniability.


AI firms already managed to successfully weasel their way out of copyright laws. They will try to do the same with advertising laws.

I wonder if the current laws are written in a way that accounts for these models. Sure, if a specific tool call results in a paid product card for pepsi, that ought to be labeled. But what if the number on some pepsi-related weights is massaged just a bit, way early on in the process? What if the training data is tweaked to include some additional pro-pepsi inputs?

I look grimly forward to the future of adblock, which I predict will literally involve a media interception and re-rendering agent that sits between us and everything we see, hear, read, etc. AR goggles that put beach pictures over bus stop posters and red squigglies under sentences with a high enough adtech confidence score. This shit's gonna get real weird in our lifetimes.


The political economy equilibrium enabled by technology very much goes the other way though. Once politicians realize they can surveil everyone in real time for wrongthink and wrongspeak they have existential incentives to seize that power as fast as possible, lest another power center seize it instead and use it against them. That is why you are seeing the rise of totalitarianism and democratic backsliding everywhere, because the toxic combination of asymmetric cryptography (for secure boot/attestation/restricting what software can run), always online computers, and cheap data processing and storage leads to inexorable centralization of soft and hard power.

I'm pretty sure it can do all of those except for the one which requires a physical body (in the kitchen) and the one that humans can't do reliably either (construct 10000 loc bug-free).

I’ll be honest I kinda like it on iOS is it that much worse on MacOS?

I remember reading about all of the foibles of Apollo 7 and how that was caused by the astronauts all getting a head cold and being miserable and irritable, or how Frank Borman got so space sick on Apollo 8 he recorded a secret message in the data dump for the doctor to bypass the capcom, and I’m curious how this now became a pseudo-political issue.

“Better at preventing” \neq “can’t”. The hoopla you are seeing here is textbook selective enforcement. There’s also the kafkatrap of showing that a model can do this makes you technically criminally liable for possession of CSAM, which I’m sure will be enforced against the journalists who demonstrated it as rigorously as they want it to be enforced against Twitter.

> “Better at preventing” \neq “can’t”.

That's not really relevant. Generally with things that have both good and bad uses you can't reasonably prevent all the bad uses. You can just put in safeguards to try to reduce them.


This is true for most things but not for CSAM which is a strict liability crime in most places.

> The hoopla you are seeing here is textbook selective enforcement

This is true in the same way that American gun nuts say shootings happen in other countries, hoping you won’t check absolute numbers. The fact that the large groups which specialize in creating this content favor Grok over the other major players strongly suggests the complaint is valid.

https://www.404media.co/grok-ai-sexual-abuse-imagery-twitter...


> “Better at preventing” \neq “can’t”. The hoopla you are seeing here is textbook selective enforcement.

When the prevention is sufficient that the politicians and law enforcement don't realise a crime has occurred, it's no more selective than policing being limited to where the police and CCTV cameras actually are.

Given both (1) the scale of the web means it can only be searched by the same kind of AI that would also be used by a more respectable GenAI supplier to prevent unlawful output in the first place; and also given that (2) Gemini and ChatGPT image generation are not as heavily tied to a social network as Grok is to Twitter, it may simply be that nobody has any evidence of wrongdoing by other specifically identifiable GenAI image providers, at most it will be "we know this image was GenAI, but don't know if this was an online service or local, nor if money changed hands for this".

X makes it easy to know that X is to blame. Sora probably could have had this drama if they didn't filter out stuff like this, but they do filter well enough.


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