There’s been reporting on this in several mainstream publications that was accurate as far as the systems I worked with. Unfortunately I don’t want to dox myself on here, so unsatisfyingly the best I can offer is “trust me bro”.
The tele-operation is also kinda vague because as I understand it, with Waymo at least, they are not turning a steering wheel and pushing pedals at HQ, they are saying "Pull over here" etc.
Hunger, like cold exposure, is an uncomfortable but transient signal. In many cases it peaks and subsides without requiring immediate action, especially once the body adapts.
Anecdotally, my first 72-hour fast was revealing. Around the 48-hour mark my body aggressively signaled hunger, esp. for sugary foods. By the third day, however, hunger largely subsided, and at break I wasn’t hungry at all. For the following week the usual sugary suspects in my life went untouched. Subsequent 72-hour fasts were far more manageable, suggesting at least some component of adaptation.
My understanding is that this ability to adapt exists because intermittent hunger and cold were regular aspects of human life for much of our history, particularly in environments without reliable food access (pre-agrarian) or thermal protection.
I have similar findings. I fast regularly and take cold showers. Another thing is one meal days are far easier after you do it couple of times. You don’t even think about food which is harder if you have two to three meals per day.
Edit: for those wanting to try this lifestyle, everybody is different. do your own research before jumping into regular fasting or even cold showers. Max time without food I did was 6 days, since then t it he max is 72 hours. Do blood work regularly and if you drink coffee be aware that caffeine withdraws are painful.
I only eat breakfast intentionally, as I am not really hungry in the mornings. But as I understand it, it's better to get your calories earlier in the day than late, so I make myself eat in the morning.
I am testing it at the moment. I read that cortisol levels raise after 14 hours or so of no food. So I decided to eat breakfast about 13 hours to see if there's any changes on my mood. I do find it that I get less cranky. Another thing, this year during mother's day I had a huge brunch, so I didn't eat anything else that day, and it worked fine for 24 hours, the problem is that I felt in comma after eating that much which is one of the reason I stopped eating lunch, I don't like to crash; what to eat solves that partially, but I still fine some slow down after eating breakfast.
When calory restricting I do this too: I am actually never hungry before 11 am while I get up at 5 am always but I force myself (at 8) and don't need anything else the rest of the day because of it.
You scare me. After life dishing out one of its lessens, I decided to get some fundamentals in order, and for me that includes 3 meals a day, with the family. Things have to get really disastrous to not get breakfast, and I don't think my kid skipped breakfast ever. Each his own, of course, but I wonder what happens in your life that this is semi normal?
I have a morning routine. Usually I go for a walk and read for an hour before doing anything else. But I almost never eat breakfast. I'm just not hungry in the morning.
By midday I'm on an adventure. Some days, it takes me in a direction where it makes more sense to skip lunch than to stop and have it.
When I'm hungry and it's convenient, I eat. When I'm not, I don't.
It's almost never the case that I'm hungry for a meal three times a day.
> if you drink coffee be aware that caffeine withdraws are painful.
I've successfully used caffeine pills (e.g. some NoDoz brand products) for coffee replacement to avoid withdrawal symptoms.
Specifically I used caffeine pills to give up coffee. I found it easy to taper down caffeine usage to zero by using a standardised dose size.
Additionally pills are a habit change which helps me stick with a plan. I have tapered down using instant coffee but I found that was a little harder to police myself.
When you do not eat, you are not permanently hungry, at least not when you are accustomed to this. This is similarly like when you feel that you must immediately use the restroom, but when that not happens the sensation disappears and it may come back only one hour or two later.
What is funny is that, at least for me, the sensation of hunger is strongly conditioned by whether there really exists a possibility to satisfy it.
I eat 2 meals per day and during the time between them I am not hungry, and if I were hungry that would be futile, because I intentionally do not keep in my home any kind of food that can be eaten instantly, but only raw ingredients that I must cook before eating.
After I cook my next meal, I have to be patient and wait some time for the food to cool down. During that time, I become suddenly very hungry and like you say, I find it difficult to continue to work at the computer or at whatever I was doing, as my thought shifts to the food I am waiting to eat.
In the past, when I kept food that could be eaten at any time, without preparation, I became frequently hungry and it was hard to resist to the temptation of having a snack.
Some people never seem to be able to think clearly or focus while fasting, independently of any feelings of hunger. There is likely some biological variability here, but it could also be due to metabolic problems that are making it hard to provide the brain with energy during a fast. In some cases the fasting itself can help treat that, and it may get better over time.
People respond differently to fasting, some are never able to do focused knowledge work during a fast, others can’t at first but can once their bodies get used to fasting. Others can immediately focus better right from the beginning. There is a lot of individual variation.
I literally cannot sleep if hungry. I wake up in the middle of the night if I had dinner and went to bed at midnight.
My trick is to eat one apple right before sleep, then I wake up not hungry and can sleep well.
I did that before, my breath becomes horrible when that happens, but it's way more manageable.
Is there a way to activate ketosis before starting the fasting? That seems like it could solve my problem
Ketosis is your body using fat as an energy source when glucose isn't readily available. So if you deprive yourself of dietary glucose (carbs, simple sugars, etc), but keep eating fat and protein, you'll enter ketosis while eating as much sustenance as you want. Use ketone strips to tell when it happens.
Apologies in advance for the pedantic response, but the human body can generally make enough glucose from protein to keep you out of ketosis. You usually have to restrict both protein and fat to reliably induce ketosis. You can confirm this for yourself with ketone test strips. Most dieters on so called ketogenic diets are not actually in ketosis.
Even more surprising is that fermentable fibers get converted into short chain fats by bacteria in the gut that are ultimately metabolized as ketones, so a diet high in those can induce ketosis even with a high carb diet. Some herbivore animals are always in ketosis, and some carnivores are almost never in ketosis unless they are starving and can’t find protein.
I believe you but can't attest from personal experience. Almost any time I've gone low carb and into ketosis, I've also reduced my calorie intake. All you can eat bacon and eggs gets old quick.
Ultimately, regardless of how one feels, you need to (will) maintain calorie balance in the long term, and cold exposure requires a higher calorie intake.
For sure, but my point is that increased hunger doesn’t automatically negate the benefit via overeating; people often adapt through modest adjustment instead.
More generally, it seems inconsistent to assume someone can voluntarily tolerate significant cold discomfort while being unable to manage similar degrees of hunger discomfort.
I also found that after my first 3 day fast I was able to deal with hunger much better. I used to get irritable when hungry and now I realise I can just tolerate it without any real downside — even years after my last fast.
It’s like my brain has retrained itself to ‘just get over it’. It was quite something
After about 24 hours I don't notice anymore. I just finished a 2 week fast on only water, tea and supplements. I hardly notice when I focus on something else (work/hobby). When I stop focusing I get sleepy instead of hungry. Cold I have not managed; I come from a cold country and I really really hate any type of cold; I like 30C+ high humidity as a baseline, under that, I am cold and uncomfortable. I did try to view them the same and tried to meditate through it, but, unlike fasting, I cannot ignore the continues suffering that is cold while fasting is almost pleasant (makes me sharper).
Curious, what is your solution to this situation? Imagine all labor has been automated - virtually all facets of life have been commoditized, how does the average person survive in such a society?
I would go further and ask how does a person who is unable to work survive in our current society? Should we let them die of hunger? Send them to Equador? Of course not, only nazis would propose such a solution.
Isn't this the premise of some sci-fi books and such?
(We in some way, in the developed world, are already mostly here in that the lifestyle of even a well-off person of a thousand years ago is almost entirely supported by machines and such; less than 10% of labor is in farming. What did we do? Created more work (and some would say much busy-work).)
The story about the photography students was conveyed almost verbatim in the book Atomic Habits fwiw.
But I think this type of principle has been relayed through many forms. Even Bruce Lee has the famous quote “I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once,
but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.”
It's such an interesting arc. I starting university in Sept '94, super excited to try out Mosaic on a T1 class connection after suffering through my 14.4k home modem. And shortly after I arrived, Netscape dropped.
He was an absolute hero of that era, possibly the most admired 'geek' back then. Young, with hair, with no hints of his future Dr. Evil emergence.
I don't recall that fame at the time (from Mcom/Netscape, JWZ was more visible, in my circles), but I knew his name.
When he was first coding NCSA Mosaic, we were both pretty young, and doing workstation development, which took more of what HN would consider hacker spirit than the bulk of contemporary software development does. And we were also presumably Internet people, so I assumed he was like me.
In my mind, there was a default Internet person culture, which was very different than the tech industry culture of today. Curious, optimistic and wanting to bring Internet tech and culture to people, and a sense of responsibility for it. (Not affected platitudes, but innate and genuine; but also not tested by the potential of wealth, so you didn't really know how firmly held it was.)
Culturally, today, I seem to be closer than him to my early impression of early Internet people. (Though I changed my mind about trying to first become a professor and then do research commercial spinouts, rather than to grab the initial dotcom boom money right away. So I'd like a do-over.)
I don't know why he culturally seemed to go into the direction of libertarian manifestos and questionable crypto pumping.
Maybe he has in mind a version of OG Internet values, or some other vision, and he's trying to amass more wealth and power to make it happen?
There have been a few OG hackers in the VC space who you might have assumed would go one way if they had money, but then went a different way. Were they actually always like that? Did they learn something that changed how they think about the world? Were they changed by money/power circles, sycophants, or drugs? Did their business take on a life of its own, naturally maximizing profit, and they were just along for the ride?
I had idea that was a 'thing' in the Louvre when a went a couple years back. Was wild competing for space at the front of the line with a half dozen kids taking selfies.
I dunno... I really enjoyed walking through the Hall of Mirrors. Obviously that experience alone is no where near the entirety of the Louvre, and I wouldn't suggest heading out to Versailles if you're only in Paris for say a 5 day trip, but I'm glad I went on my 11 day trip a couple years back.
We somehow managed to get to it with relatively few people. The rest was 100 people per square centimeter, multiple tourist groups fighting for the same spots, more crowded than a Tokyo subway in peak hour.
Though I've heard it's much better if you manage to get there at opening time.
Lovely to hear this about Infocom and SOL. The former was my obsession throughout the mid-late 80s on my Atari 800XL, and then the latter for the next few years after getting a 386SX in '89.
I agree, soma definitely parallels weed much more closely, but I don't think it's a perfect match. Huxley imagines a drug a bit more insidious, without obviously negative side effects, and with somewhat unrealistic(imo) intended effects.
Disagree. Weed is somewhat psychadelic ... and makes people enjoy the colors and not work so much. Soma made people numbless working with a feeling of glow. So I always understood it as antidepressant and moodlifter with some amphetamine compoments.
Weed isn't really psychedelic (it can be profound, and sometimes you'll get extra giggly...) but really it's more about being okay with the numbness.
It's also not really an antidepressant any more than it is an amphetamine (it's neither). Attempting to self-medicate in either direction is not beneficial, longer term.
If your marijuana usage carries you through such wide-ranging symptomology, that's on you homey [holds-back next pass to you]. It's okay to ask for help.
Depends on mind, use, dose. I've had THC trips that were almost as strong as concentrated mushrooms can deliver on an empty stomach, seeing shit that wasn't, patterns, my mind was light years away, reality twisted. Almost as strong.
Didn't dance as a mist of atoms to shamanic music without any connection to my real 5 senses, but then again I hardly met mushroom user who did achieve that themselves.
I agree with you that even higher doses of psilocybin (several grams) isn't that psychedelic (rather interconnected, e.g.)... I don't have enough experience with LSD to exclude its visuals capability, but even its quintessential acid visuals I rarely hear described [as such].
...unlike DMT (recommended) or Salvia (not recommended) or mescaline (neutral), which even at low dosages are strikingly visual. I have only met devils with the latter two. Ketamine isn't exactly visual, but its dreaminess is angelic.
> Marijuana often seems to promote thinking "outside the box"
Hard disagree. Cannabis induces a sensation of profundity. It makes ordinary mundane thoughts feel insightful and novel. The ideas you have when on cannabis seem like insightful out of the box ideas, but that's a perceptual illusion created by the drug. The best it can do is provide you the encouragement to see ideas through to the end, but of course this is tempered by the way it generally has a negative effect on motivation, so most often users are left thinking of ideas they think are wonderful, but not actually executing on those ideas. End result is usually a couch potato lost in unproductive thoughts.
I think he was inspired by Valium and other benzos. They put people into a docile, low-anxiety state, and they were popular around the time the book was written.
That's also more-or-less consistent with the implied literary reference to the Lotus Eaters, who I think are usually imagined as opium users. Opioids are different but are also downers that reduce anxiety.
Benzos later featured significantly in one of Adam Curtis' film-essays -- maybe Century of the Self, maybe another one. I'd view those films as being in a similar spirit to Brave New World.
If we are talking about BNW, which was written in 1931, then that book predates benzodiazepines by 25 years or so. Perhaps you are thinking about barbiturates?
Oof! Thank you for the correction. I should have checked the publication date. I thought it was from the late '50s; I was wrong.
(By contrast, turns out 1984 -- which is always paired with BNW -- came out later than I thought, in '49. Yet BNW seemed more forward-looking. I always imagined it was written partially in response. It wasn't.)
There goes my benzo theory.
Though they remain what I imagine when I read about soma.
It is, you're right, and it's super weird what happens on the internet when you suggest weed isn't some gateway to enlightenment. I love cannabis, but it's a depressant that increases dopamine, it's not that complicated. Stoners on the internet sound exactly like alcoholics—they say it makes them more creative, helps them sleep, deal with anxiety too. We do such a shit job teaching about signs of psychological addiction.
It definitely doesn’t help sleep quality, but it could plausibly help with creativity in people who have the capacity to have good creative ideas. This is because it seems to produce a feeling that all (or at least more) of one’s ideas are good.
If someone has a problem with idea development because they decide early that the idea isn’t worth exploring, perhaps due to low self confidence in ideation etc, then simply producing the feeling of it being a good idea could help them go further than they would otherwise with it. Of course it also makes dumb ideas feel like good ideas too, so for someone who doesn’t have the capacity to have good creative ideas or who doesn’t have this problem in the first place, it probably won’t help.
I’ve read that it interferes with one or more sleep stages enough to make them ineffective. My understanding is that it may help someone fall asleep, but the actual sleep they get will definitely be worse. So for insomnia, where the alternative is just not sleeping at all, yes, but otherwise no, AFAIK.
Exactly. In addition to general insomnia, people who suffer from persistent nightmares due to PTSD or other reasons will sleep restfully.
And with nightmares I’m not referring to bad dreams in general, but to horrific nightmares where a person is re-experiencing their trauma in various ways, not necessarily remembering their dreams afterwards.
Imagine sleeping eight hours but waking up more tired than when you went to sleep and in full panic mode without even knowing why. After months and years, it gets pretty tiring.
Being able to not be afraid of going to sleep is a lifesaver and can keep those people functional in their lives.
The sedation is psychological - soma suppresses discomfort and boosts easy pleasure. It’s not introspective at all, which makes it much closer to MDMA than to cannabis.
pure racemic MDMA has very little stimulant effect. street MDMA can feel stimulating because it is either intentionally mixed with caffeine/speed/meth or contains residual precursor from clandestine synthesis.
my major state was one of deep relaxation ... MDMA does not work like Dexedrine ... I feel totally peaceful.
Shulgin used dozens (hundreds?) of these compounds. I do wonder if some of his better subjective observations might be due to simply relieving withdrawal symptoms.
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